In today’s episode, I’m joined by PGSDer Rose Gebken to talk about what it’s really like inside Perfectionists Getting Shit Done.
If you’re thinking about signing up for Perfectionists Getting Shit Done, this episode is for you.
Rose and I talk about:
- The difference between listening to The Perfectionism Project and being inside PGSD
- How Rose knew it was the right time for her to sign up for PGSD
- Why Rose decided to invest in herself and her business before it was successful
- The three things Rose wishes she could tell her pre-PGSD self
- The power of the PGSD community and listening to other perfectionists get coached
Perfectionists Getting Shit Done (PGSD) is now open for enrollment but doors close in less than 48 hours – on Wednesday, 24 June at 11:59pm EDT. This is your last chance to get lifetime access. Get instant access to everything in the program as soon as you sign up at samlaurabrown.com/pgsd.
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Introduction
This is the Perfectionism Project, the only podcast created specifically for perfectionists who are building businesses. I’m your host, Sam Laura Brown, perfectionism expert and entrepreneur. I teach perfectionists how to plan properly, consistently follow through and rest without guilt so they can build profitable and fulfilling businesses without burning out.
I’ve helped over a thousand perfectionist entrepreneurs do exactly that inside my program, Perfectionist Getting Shit Done. If you’re tired of procrastinating, overthinking and half finishing your ideas, you’re in the right place. Now, let’s dive in.
Sam Laura Brown
Welcome to this episode. So today I am interviewing Rose. She is one of our PGSDErs.
So she is inside perfectionist getting shit done. And I wanted to have her on the podcast because last week I was coaching her on a PGSD coaching call. And she said, I really want to give you a testimonial just as a side note.
And I said in an email, Hey, come on the podcast and let’s talk about your PGSD experience. So this episode is in particular for anyone who is already thinking about signing up for PGSD. So you can do the things, you know, you need to do to build your business.
You can actually follow through on that. You can take consistent action and you can learn how to work with your perfectionist brain so that you can grow your business without running out. So if you have been thinking about PGSD, maybe you’ve been listening to my podcast for a while, maybe you already just have the sense that it’s something that would be really helpful.
Then I want to invite you to listen to this interview with Rose in full, because what she shared is incredibly helpful. And she just wanted to share what passed her pre-PGSD would want and need to hear, and just a lot about her experience inside the program as well. So I hope you enjoy this interview with Rose.
Sam: Hi Rose, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you on to talk about your experience as a perfectionist who is building a business and also as someone who is inside perfectionist getting shit done. Thank you so much for making the time.
Rose: Thank you, Sam. It’s wonderful to be here.
Sam: So to get started, do you just want to introduce yourself a little bit? Like what kind of business do you have? Where are you at currently on your business journey?
Rose: Sure, absolutely.
So I have iterated through a couple of things. I started about 20 years ago during university as an editor. I was a freelance editor and I started working for friends of mine, mostly graduate students and professors.
And initially my aunt had suggested that I do it and I started doing it for free. I had a friend who was a graduate student and she spoke English as her second language. And so I was editing papers for her and I just enjoyed doing it.
And I remember telling my aunt at the time, no, it’s really not like a real job. It’s just something I enjoy doing for fun. And here almost 20 years later, I’ve built a career out of writing and editing.
So it started, my business started as that. I was full-time mid twenties for about a year and that was exciting. But other than that, it’s been primarily just part-time in between alongside full-time jobs that were day jobs for an employer.
Sam: And you’re currently working full-time as well?
Rose: I am back to that. So it has carried me through a couple of different layoffs and moves where I quit my job. But I am currently back to full-time with the job on the part, with the business on part-time.
Sam: Okay. So tell me before you joined PGSD, what did business look like for you in the sense of like getting in your own way, perfectionism, were you doing the things you knew you needed to do? What was that like for you?
Rose: So I would say I started formally with business coaching in the end of 2019, beginning of 2020. It was something I decided to gift myself.
I had had a bad breakup the year before and I decided to reinvest all the money that I had invested in activities and things around that relationship. That’s why I was like, okay, I have a very large budget for Rose this year. And I thought I’d always wanted my own business.
So why not take it seriously? I felt like investing was a way of taking something seriously and taking myself seriously.
Sam: Yeah. And what did perfectionism look like for you?
Rose: So I’m very, very, I would say the main thing is that I’m very productive and very willing to be productive and creative on things that people never see.
And so I had, I have, I had have a lot of writing. I have like two or three books at this point, at least two books worth of, you know, manuscripts that are published. I have tons of poems.
I have just I’ve been painting for actually five years now and I have only a couple of paintings that are living with other people. So that I would say is like the biggest symptom for me is that the speed bump of getting my work from being inside me as a creative person to being out in the world just felt like enormous. And so like counterproductively exhausting to the point where like, I just wouldn’t as like, I feel like as it’s becoming clear, I just wouldn’t even try like to get it out in the world.
Very, very fit. And it’s almost like actually I have the same experience even sometimes at the level of producing the creative work. So this is what I had years ago.
It’s evolved now into the, into being more productive, being able to produce the work. But it used to be that I would wait until I couldn’t handle it anymore. And then I would produce a whole bunch.
And now I think that’s shifted to the putting it out into the world of like, I produce, produce, produce until I can’t. It’s like almost like letting off a valve, like steam or something. And then I’ll be like, okay, I need to like publish something.
And then I like find something, I submit it, I get it published. And then I’m like, that was that was a lot of exposure. And I have like the vulnerability hangover.
And then, and also, I think it’s like the pressure is taken off of the desire to put it out there. And so then I go under a rock again, and just create, create for another couple months. That’s best my experience as of the last, like, probably two and a half years.
Sam: Yeah, it’s so common for perfectionists, especially when we’re in a creative kind of business that it feels a lot easier to be doing things behind the scenes and having the ideas and doing the creating and experimenting with things. So sometimes perfectionism can stop us from doing that too. But a lot of times it’s so common, and I see this with myself as well, that the publishing piece and the getting it out into the world for others to see it is often where the perfectionism stops us from having things be fully completed, like it’s often complete on the back end, but then the publishing steps aren’t taken, which gets so frustrating, because then we’re like, but I’m doing all these things.
And like, I know I have so much potential, I’m getting to see my own work, but then it’s not actually connecting with anyone else. And the business isn’t growing because it doesn’t get published. So that’s something that we obviously coach on and support with inside PGSD, because it’s such a major thing to be able to go from someone who creates stuff, and then just creates more to being able to be someone who creates and then publishes, creates and publishes, creates and publishes.
So for you, with PGSD, why did you decide to sign up?
Rose: I wanted, it’s almost like taking the medicine, like I wanted to change, like I wanted to learn how to do it in a different way. And I wanted to see my work in the world. And I wanted to stop stopping myself, like learn how to stop stopping myself.
I can’t tell you how much probably, you know, maybe 80 I mean, maybe I’m exaggerating, but I don’t think I am probably I would say it specifically of my writing in particular, given that I’ve been writing much longer than I’ve been painting, I would say 85 90% of my work is no one’s ever seen that maybe 95 or more percent. And that’s something that I know can change in terms of publishing. And but that’s the real reason was like to learn how to shift that so that I could be safe and functional, like putting work out into the world.
Sam: Yeah, 100%. And one of the things in PGSD that we teach and coach on is safe visibility, because being visible, like there’s this fear of like, okay, but if I actually show up and follow through and do the things, that means my work is going to be out in the world. And I don’t know if I can handle my work being out into the world.
So we then get busy on the back end or like researching other things or learning other things. And it’s being able to create safe visibility for yourself so you can publish. And instead of expecting like, oh, no, it’s going to feel unsafe and just push yourself to do it.
Like that’s typically what we go to is like, oh, I either need to just push myself to do it, which feels horrible to think about just like it really doesn’t feel safe to share it. And I’ll just go and post or show up online or I can’t do it at all. But like, actually, you can create safe visibility.
So I love that’s why you signed up. So tell me the reason this call is happening is because on our PGSD call last week, I was coaching you. And you were like, side note, I really want to give you a PGSD testimonial.
Like, can we essentially like, can we figure out a way for me to do that? And so I emailed you and said, like, would you like to come on the podcast and share? And I said, you don’t need to prepare anything. And then you said, well, I’m a perfectionist, I can’t not prepare. So and some of us go into preparing, some of us don’t prepare as a symptom of the perfectionism and just like the fear of my best won’t be good enough.
So I’m just not going to prepare at all. So I can avoid that whole thing. But you said you prepared some points for past pros who listened to this podcast and wasn’t yet inside perfectionist getting shit done.
You haven’t told me what they are. I said, tell me when we’re recording so I can hear them then. But do you want to just tell me the first one and then we can chat about it?
Rose: Yes, I would love to.
And I would say, as you were introing this, I realized as you were talking just now that even before that, I just want to note, also for everyone listening that this experience in and of itself is an experience of safety and safe expression for me, in the sense that I think I told you before the call that I was kind of waiting to feel nervous. I don’t love public speaking historically. And even though I do have a good amount of experience in it, I still tend to get nervous, no matter what it is, especially when it’s the first time doing something.
And I kept waiting. And I kept feeling like, oh, OK, no, I’m actually just fine. And that is a shift that I would say.
And even the fact of giving myself credit in the pre-PGSD, myself would have discounted appearing on your podcast as not business-related for me, which is crazy, or as not doing something. So I see a lot of mindset shifts, even just in the year now, six months or so, a couple, really three or four months that I’ve been really engaged with the program. So the first thing that I wrote down in terms of for my past self was that I signed up before I was actually ready.
And I wanted to share this with people because I have taken so many programs in many different verticals, different fields in my life, and often judge my engagement, like the value of the program based on my engagement, and put a lot of pressure on myself for that, and just get all tangled up. And even just before dealing with the material, the performance element. And I think on some level, I knew that I was signing up before I was ready.
But I also felt like I had to sign up in order to get myself ready. Be ready. Yes.
Yeah. So I just feel like it’s important to understand that I don’t think there’s ever any point where you’re quote-unquote ready, and that it really… And so that isn’t the criterion. I think that for me, when I think back, and I think of, how did, like, why did I? Like, how did I know that it was going to, like, on some level, I knew that it was going to pay off for me.
And then subsequently, I did not really engage with the program for… I think I signed up, and then I disappeared for three months. And then I think I popped back in, and was like, wait, I missed out on some bonuses because I wasn’t even doing… I didn’t even read the emails. And then I think I disappeared again for another couple months.
So I really didn’t have been doing the program. So I signed up in January of 2025. And I think really January of 2026 is when I started making a plan myself, to give myself time to actually work on it and work on my business.
And then really the last three months is when I think I’ve been showing up fairly consistently for the weekly live coaching. And so I want to also put that out there of, like, it’s not, like, the fact that I was very absent for the first year didn’t mean that, like, it was a year. Like, that’s a good chunk of time.
But it doesn’t mean that the program wasn’t right for me. And my criteria was that we talked about this a little bit, but that I really, from listening to the podcast, the Perfectionism Project, I realized, like, the vibe and the brain, like the process and the way your brain works, and the way you see the world was a fit for me. It’s not, it doesn’t have to be like, that’s enough.
Yeah, there isn’t some kind of, like, the secret sauce that I need for my business is really, like, in me. But the whole point of coaching is, like, and is, like, to draw it out. It’s not something that you’re, like, giving me per se.
Yeah, and I think I didn’t really understand that before coming. I mean, maybe I understood it subconsciously, but.
Sam: Yeah, I think that’s so important.
Just the, I don’t know for myself what I’m thinking about signing up for things. I am thinking about, is the person leading this, is their worldview either consistent with mine or better than the worldview that I have? And I want to be able to have their worldview and their self-view as well. Like, how do they treat themselves? How do they handle themselves? All of those things that I think it’s one of those kind of intangible things that it isn’t necessarily, like, one specific thing that they’ve said or that they teach, but it’s just the overall, like, I feel like this person could really help me.
And there’s something about, like, for the people that I learned from, like, there’s something about what they’re doing. I just keep coming back and I’m like, and I feel so energized listening to them. And I feel so much possibility and that, like, that belief of, like, they really believe in me.
And I deeply believe in you. I deeply believe in our PGSDers, in anyone listening to the podcast when I’m recording, like, I’m, I’m thinking about all of the possibility and all of the, yeah, just like what can happen, how quickly things can change, like all of that. I’m holding that vision.
And it means that when you come into PGSD and you’re setting a growth goal and figuring things out that, like, I believe you can succeed. So if you’re wobbly about it, you can lean on my belief and everyone else’s belief as well, while you’re getting your own strength up in your belief. And it’s just so important to have, I agree wholeheartedly to have someone leading you that you’re like, this is the vibe for me.
I like, I don’t know if I can put my finger on it, but like, this really resonates for me and clicks for me. And I, as someone who used to work for me, she used to say, it’s the feeling of like, I, there’s a song called, I like me better when I’m with you. And it’s like, that’s the feeling of like, I like me better when I’m with you.
And that’s the same for me and the coaches that I have of like, I like me better when I’m in, in your energy and in your presence and learning from you. So yeah, I think that’s super important to mention. Is that point one? Is there, is there anything else you wanted to say on that?
Rose: Well, this is a little bit of a part two for that point one.
When you mentioned just now about the community, I think a lot of people see, it’s possible to see group coaching as second tier, because it’s usually more affordable, less, less expensive than one-on-one coaching. And what I realized, I had this big click. I was reading a post in a totally different area around, really talking about like women and femininity and how women function, even anthropologically and historically.
And basically the post was about relationships and that we have had this strange substitution in modern life. The author was putting forward that we had a strange substitution in modern life where the couple has superseded, like for women, that the way women experience families and children and has always been communal with other women. And that basically the couple in their romantic has like superseded that, been dropped in.
And so a lot of women are very isolated and somehow accepted to look to themselves and their partner to fill a need that was filled by women communally, historically. And I was like, this is so interesting. And at the same time, I was like, I don’t want to go live in a tribe somewhere.
It’s kind of like looking at this, like, hmm, like, do I agree? Do I disagree? It was kind of like rubbing me some kind of way. And then I realized when I was preparing that it can just look different. And in fact, all the women, all the PGSDers right now on the group call just happened to be women.
And it’s been like a huge, it’s been such a community for me. And I realized like one of the big things that I’ve like growth points lately has been this idea of being coached. This is my kind of like point B here is being coached on moments where it’s really positive.
So that in my, in the past, and I think it’s coming out of like from therapy into the self help kind of sphere, and maybe the crisscross that can go back and forth there, that it’s almost like coaching happens when there’s a problem or to assess problems. And instead, and this came from another PGSDer on a group call, that basically was like, I’m in a really good place. And I understand that I need some coaching around this.
And I was like, listening to her. And I was like, wait, what? What is she talking about? And then now fast forward to I want to say, that was two or two months ago or something like that. And now I find myself like a bunch of good stuff.
I feel like I’ve had a couple up levels in different areas. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m in the same place with her. Like, I think last week or the week before, I was like, I want to I need to get coached.
And it’s about good things. But it’s just about how to deal with it. It’s not like, like the change and the expansion and the it both can be uncomfortable, the level of discomfort and the level of calibration kind of doesn’t really have to do with whether things are quote, unquote, good or bad.
Like the body is uncomfortable, regardless.
Sam: Yeah. And I think I love that you said that because we can be in a place, especially as perfectionists, I think we tend to be very self-sufficient, like we don’t want to impose on anyone.
We don’t want to bother anyone. We just want to get everything right. We’re just tend towards trying to figure it all out by ourselves.
And it’s recognizing too, like, for someone listening to this, I might be like, PGSD sounds like such a great fit, but I feel like I’m doing pretty good right now. And so I don’t need support, which is, we want support when things are going well, like get yourself support and they get even better. But we’re kind of like, oh, you know, things are going good.
I don’t need any support. I found myself being in that thought pattern. And to recognize actually, no matter how things are going, I want to have the best support and I deserve the best support available to me.
And just really starting and maybe this is something that kind of like, whether you didn’t get it until you were inside of, yes, when you’re getting in your own way and there’s something you need to do and you’re not doing it, we definitely want to have support with that a hundred percent. And also then when you’re doing the things you need to do and you’re experiencing the growth and the up levels and the change, then you also want to have support with navigating, having things look different and being in a different season and being, instead of being struggling all the time, being successful and starting to have different kinds of problems come up that it’s so important to have support with that. But I think we just tend to be in this mindset of like, unless I’m really struggling, then I don’t need support.
And I don’t know exactly where we have learned that from, but just what I’ve been doing a lot for myself is like, actually when I’m thriving, that’s when I need, not even need, like when I want the most support to continue the thriving instead of like, okay, things are going good. Let me drop support. So when I’m back to struggling, then I’ll get support again to go to thrive.
It’s like, no, actually I want to be highly supported all of the time to help me navigate all of the things that come up and also get better at celebrating, get better at when we achieve success as identity work to be done to normalize it. So we don’t self-sabotage and go back to the old patterns that we had, like we need to actually have it feel safe to be in success. And this is work that we do in PGSD as well, because once you do come in and you start doing the things you know you need to do, people who join are smart, capable, successful in other areas.
So naturally their business starts being successful too. And then it’s like, okay, well now, especially if you’ve struggled for years to do the things you need to do, to then shift into like, wait, I’m succeeding now. We need to normalize that.
Or we just go back into being the procrastinator and the overthinker because that feels normal. So I love that you said that because it’s such an important thing to like, when you’re struggling, get support. And when you feel like you’re doing pretty good, that is a really, really important space for support as well.
Rose: That resonates so deeply with me. And I would say something also that I didn’t really experience, didn’t understand, especially pre-2019 when I made the shift to like wanting to really take my business seriously and build a business intentionally. I never thought of that moment of being like in a successful, like in a good place.
And I do think this is the way the perfectionism works for me of like, I always took that as a reason to take on more. And basically that was my way of self, is my way of self-sabotaging and getting myself back to like a level of dysfunction. And so instead of why wouldn’t I then set up systems because I know life will come at me.
And so rather than like kind of making up life coming at me by taking on more than like what was currently working. And that is a big shift that I just see continuing, like I see that actually happening with PGSD of like, why not do less? Like, for example, like if you are, if you, if something’s not, like why not do the thing? Like, let it, let it work. And instead of like the problems and actually, and that’s the celebration piece.
I don’t know how to do that alone, to be honest. Like I have only learned that through being with other people.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, it’s so, so important because celebration is part of how we normalize what we’ve achieved so that then we don’t self-sabotage.
If we don’t celebrate it, it just, we end up recreating the old things that we’ve been doing. And even for me, I’ve disinvested in a group coaching program for myself. And I feel like I’m in a really great place.
I’m like, well, I wanna have support as I navigate my business continuing to grow. I wanna have support available instead of like things are going great. I’ll just go solo until I’m really struggling.
And that’s been such a shift as well. Like even personal life, why is it previously I’d only get help with like babysitting when I’m like at my wits end. And now I’m like, oh no, like that support is there to help me continue to thrive.
Like I’m not in desperate need of it. And that’s a really good sign as well that it’s a great time to have it, to keep me continuing to be in a great place. So, and I also, what I mentioned about the community thing with just being in community, because especially with being able to do the things you know you need to do and follow through with plans, like I just need like someone one-on-one to keep me highly accountable and just like be there like holding my hand every step of the way.
And in PGSD we teach self-accountability and how to follow through with your plans and that skillset which is absolutely essential for entrepreneurship. Without that skillset, the business ultimately won’t exist and won’t be successful. But really the reason PGSD is in a group setting with personal one-on-one support, like I’ve coached you quite a few times on our calls, is because we perfectionists, if we don’t hear what everyone else is struggling with, we just have all this shame from thinking we’re the only one that feels like they have potential but they’re not doing the things they know they need to do and why am I so different? Why, like, what’s wrong with me? And then when you hear everyone else, you’re like, oh, okay, it’s like, it’s not just me.
And you can hear someone else getting coached and be like, oh my God, that’s the situation I’m in right now but I didn’t even realize it. And someone else, like as a surrogate, is getting the coaching that you didn’t even realize that you needed. So yeah, community is so important.
And I think a lot of us, just from the way the world is structured now, it’s very easy to not have community or to get community in places unintentionally, like in the comment section of different platforms, of like, I don’t even feel good when I’m in here but I’m just like trying to be amongst conversation. So let me read everyone else’s comments and like, I don’t actually find it uplifting but let me do this just so I can be in connection. So having a really positive, supportive way to get that is incredibly important because otherwise we just meet that need but in a unhelpful way.
So, so important. I love that you said that. What was the third thing you wanted to talk about?
Rose: Well, so one thing that this was, yeah, this was actually the third thing.
So I have the middle, I have some middle points but the, you brought up shame and one of the points that I wrote down was that this is the first place that I’ve been in terms of a coaching learning, particularly around business environment where shame doesn’t feel like something to outgrow. It’s that instead, like, so I’ve had an experience of like releasing shame in like the feminine embodiment space, like totally different work. Like I would say more body centric in the business environment.
I’ve never had it treated so neutrally before as how I feel like we experience it together as a group on the group coaching calls. And instead, like I see it as like, I see that it’s like, the way that I’ve experienced it on PGSD which has been a big shift for me is that it’s just seen as almost like a natural by-product of the process of putting yourself into outside your comfort zone. And just that it’s like, oh, yep, there it is.
Okay. And then you just keep going. Like the idea is that you just keep going not that you have to like analyze or like clinicize yourself of like, like what do I need to do now about the shame? It’s like sort of like the shame isn’t the problem.
It’s like a non-issue. And I’ve never really had it. So I’ve never had it made explicit and brought out and welcomed explicitly so that people on a call can say, I’m feeling a lot of shame about X. And I am not the only one.
I mean, that is really frequent, I would say. On your calls. It’s very normalized.
And I would say you normalize it as well in sharing emails and anecdotes. And then the response is always like being held but also like not making a big deal about it. And that has really helped me because I feel like as a perfectionist, I wanna make, my brain wants to make a big deal about literally every single thing and it’s exhausting and like not productive.
Sam: Well, the whole deal with perfectionism and I love that you’ve pointed this out as well and just put words to it in a way that I don’t think I ever have before is that perfectionism is all about trying to avoid shame. Like we’re polishing the things or not polishing the poems and the art and all of that to try to avoid shame because we think it’s such a big deal to be ashamed. And so to be able to be in a space where you can be like, I feel really ashamed about this and it feels safer to share that because everyone else is sharing things.
And not from this kind of like shame dumping or things like that, just like, oh yeah, this is embarrassing for me to share or like, I feel a bit uncomfortable but I also need to talk about it. That when we can just have it be like, okay, your brain is thinking a thought that’s creating the feeling of shame, that feeling doesn’t feel nice. But also like, we don’t have to believe that there’s something wrong with you.
Like the shame is coming from a thought, that there’s something wrong with me. Like I’m unlovable, like I’m inherently not worthy of connection with other, like that kind of thought is what produces shame. And it’s a normal feeling to experience.
I don’t think there’s anyone that gets to avoid that our brains seem to be because we’re so wired for connection. It’s, we’re just hypervigilant about like, where might I not be loved by someone or like get disconnected. And we really try to not end up being disconnected from the people around us.
And so our brain produces thoughts that create shame. So to keep us in connection and to keep us surviving because we used to be in the tribes, but it’s like, okay, I can have a thought that I’m not good enough or completely inadequate. And I don’t have to believe that thought.
I can just have the thought, have the feeling and witness it, but we don’t have to just go into full belief. Like I think we just often, without it being normalized, we think, oh, my brain’s thinking this, no one else’s brain thinks this. So this must mean it’s actually true.
Okay, shit, what do I do about the fact that I’m completely inadequate? Okay, let me try and do this and try and do that. And then we have this whole perfectionist strategy to try and figure out how to actually be good enough and be perfect enough so as to never feel shame. Cause it’s not a fun experience, but I also love talking about it.
Like shame is just for me. My face is hot. Like my pulses, it’s not actually that bad when we don’t have, when we don’t believe the thought behind the feeling and we can just be present to, oh yeah, this is shame.
It feels really bad, but it actually doesn’t feel as bad as having to put all of the effort and energy into all the things I’m trying to do to avoid shame. Like if I actually can just be like, oh yes, I sometimes feel shame. So much opens up in business when we’re willing to sometimes feel shame instead of like, I must make sure everything’s absolutely perfect so I’m never ashamed.
We don’t tend to create much. We definitely tend to not publish much at all if we have a complete resistance to feeling any shame. So it’s definitely a huge part of PGSD and the coaching and just reinforcing so many different ways through everything that I just have such a strong belief that shame isn’t a big problem.
And so when someone’s like, I feel really ashamed, I’m like, okay, cool. And like, I don’t believe your shameful thought is true. You don’t have to believe it’s true either.
We can also be present with the feeling and experience that and process that. And it’s not this like gaslighting or denial of it. It’s just like, okay, cool.
Your brain is thinking a thought that’s producing a feeling. That thought isn’t actually true. I don’t know if you can see that, but I can see that.
And we can see it in others. Like, I’m so ashamed to be sharing this. And everyone’s like, not really that embarrassing.
Like, it’s such a big share. You’re like, we all have those things where it feels so big for us to share and vulnerable. But then you hear someone else be like, oh, it doesn’t make me think any different of you.
To hear that actually, it makes me feel more connected. I love to say what’s most personal is most universal and to just, yeah, be able to like, oh wait, everyone else experiences shame, but I can objectively see that they’re not inadequate. Or maybe my shameful thoughts aren’t actually true either.
And I can just hold space for that and continue building the business instead of having to get stopped every time.
Rose: Yes, and it’s so interesting, just little things that saying of what’s most personal is most universal. I hadn’t heard you say that prior to joining.
I actually have loved that saying for a long time from creativity world of like, in creative writing you reach the universal through the particular. And so it’s just another example of why, of how you can find alignment. Like it doesn’t just, it can organically, it comes from so many different places.
That I’m reminded that piece of hearing other people and like, it really helps with the reframe. A friend of mine was having, he was catastrophizing at one point of, he was just telling me his woes of this stuff. He was going through a really difficult financial situation.
He was like, I think I’m gonna have to do this and I need to get a new car. And he was like, I’m gonna have less than $5,000 in my bank account, like to my name. And I just stopped him and I was like, listen, I just, for a point of reference, I would be, I have never had $5,000 maybe like once or twice in my life, in my savings account.
And I would be thrilled if I made it that point. And he was like, oh, it was just kind of like, it really, he was like, okay, let me think about that. And we just have no idea, right?
Sam: And I talked before about the support, and you mentioned you brought up needing support, wanting support when you’re doing well and when you’re struggling.
Is that such a big part of perfectionist getting shit done is pointing out when your perfectionist brain thinks something crazy that you just think is true and just like stuff, there’s so many calls, right? I’ll just say like, is that true or whatever it is? It’s something that they would have never on their own thoughts even question. And it’s just like, oh, I hadn’t even thought, like I’m thinking about this other thing being the problem, but I hadn’t even questioned like the initial belief behind the question that came up. Like, I’m always looking like what’s upstream.
And it’s just like our perfectionist brain and our human brain too. But like when we’re in this, just so scared of feeling ashamed, like we will just create or adopt from places, crazy stories, like that person had a story of like, I should have at least $5,000 in my bank account or I’m like a complete mess or whatever. You’re like reality check, that’s not, A, no one cares, B, I see you’re doing really well.
It’s like, oh, okay, I just had a really walked point of view. And now sometimes you just need someone to be like, huh, like, what are you even talking about? So my biggest breakthroughs have been like when I’ve shared something that just felt like I was saying the sky is blue. I never would have thought to even have it be in my own self-coaching and I consider myself self-aware.
But someone’s like, wait, what, go back to that thing. Like, what do you even mean? You’re like, huh? Like, no, that’s like, no, just those moments that, that’s why I love having someone else be able to look at my thoughts. Cause I also think thoughts that I think are true.
And then I need someone to be like, what are you on about? That’s not how the world works. Like it isn’t? I love that feeling. So yeah, it’s so important to have a place where even if you’re just not getting coached yourself, like there’s a lot of people that just watch the replays and get all the value from that.
Just hearing someone else think the same things and then have that be like, wait, that doesn’t make sense. Like, oh wait, I believe that too. Like it’s my favorite thing.
And it’s really hard for us to spot for ourselves, especially for perfectionists, if when we notice something that can be changed, we go into making ourselves wrong for not having already changed it. And we kind of like deny ourselves self-awareness. I see this a lot, especially when people first join PGSD is that we don’t have as many breakthroughs because we immediately go, well, if it was that easy, I should have been doing that three years ago.
And then, so we just keep being like, no, it has to be more complicated because I feel so bad if I procrastinated for three years when it was actually super easy. Like part of it is being willing to have a breakthrough without making your past self wrong for not of having realized that sooner as well.
Rose: Yes, absolutely.
And in the case of my friend, I think part of what was helpful for me to point out to him was like, I am in the exact situation that you are fearing, in fact, worse because I don’t have close to $5,000 and I don’t see it as a problem in my life. Like, yes, I have a goal of X, Y, Z. I should probably have a little buffer saved. But for me at that point in my life, single, I didn’t have a lot of overhead.
I didn’t feel the need to have, like I didn’t feel a lot of pressure. And I have a pretty high risk tolerance as an entrepreneur and just my own personal. And I was like, oh, I’m actually fine.
Much, much less than $5,000 saved in the bank.
Sam: Which is so powerful. And I could go on a whole separate side note about it.
But like when we get our safety from having a lot of money, that it then creates lots of problems business-wise because then we just go into this kind of like hoarding mentality instead of like, oh no, I get my safety from my identity that I can figure anything out. And like, that’s probably why you have a high risk tolerance is because you believe that you can figure things out. You don’t need this massive cushion because if there was an emergency, you could figure out where to get the money.
So I love that. We will wrap up in a second so I could respect your time. So if there is someone listening to this and they’re thinking about signing up for PGSD, maybe like you, they were listening to this podcast for a year or so before.
And they’re thinking like, it sounds like something that I really want to do. And maybe they’ve thought about it in previous enrollments but haven’t. And also this enrollment is the last time to get lifetime access as well.
But for anyone who’s thinking about it, what would you say to that person?
Rose: Well, I would say first of all, that the lifetime access, I wasn’t sure if you were gonna bring that up, but it feels so very worth it to me. I was even thinking about it because I also, in between getting coached on the live calls, if I can’t make the live call, I very much listen to and have over the last couple months, listen to the calls in between and make it a point to catch up. And that has been sometimes just like equally or more valuable than being on the calls live.
So that piece is I think really important and I would say is worth it. And again, back to me not being ready initially, I think that’s worth it alone, even if the person just feels like they’re a fit, regardless of whether they’re gonna start now. The other piece that I would say occurred to me, I think on one of the recent coaching calls was that I had a big shift recently where I realized that I took evidence of not having a business up until this point, a successful thriving business that supports me in a way that feels very functional and sustainable.
I had not having had that experience up to this point, took that as evidence that I couldn’t do it or that I wouldn’t do it. But in fact, every single business didn’t exist before it existed. It’s actually just like a logical fallacy and it’s like a weird emotional thing of like, because I don’t know exactly how, I question the why, the like what, that it happened.
And so back to your point of belief and then also all of the points that we’ve made about community, those are all reasons to basically give yourself the structure that the what will happen and then it’s like giving yourself the space of the how. And it’s almost like you can stop the drama about like that you’ll have a business because you give yourself the space and the time and the community and the resources to do it. And so the when and the how can be so different for each of us, right? Even some of the PGSDers aren’t even sure right now like that are on the call are not even sure that they want a full-time business, right? And that is, it’s like you’re allowed to want a part-time business and it can still be a quote unquote real business and not a hobby business and it can be a business that generates real income and is sustainable, so.
Sam: Yeah, you can just intentionally choose how much to make rather than it being like, oh, it has to be to be real. This is what we do when we feel like it’s a hobby. We’re like, I have to feel really professional and like we try and do all these things to compensate for feeling like it’s a hobby.
And yeah, you can have a part-time business intentionally and it’d be a very real business and a full-time business and beyond that in terms of income. So yeah, I think I just love what you said about not having to be ready. Signing up is a part of what gets you ready but also just at least put yourself in the right environment to be able to take the action you need to take and especially because this is the last time to get lifetime access as well, to be able to have that whether you start right away or not, like, okay, I’m just at least getting myself in the room and then I can warm myself up a little more or just start listening to the replays of past coaching calls on the private podcast or whatever that looks like.
I know what it’s like to be like, I want this but I’m not fully ready yet but like something about this is calling my name to like, as Rose said, like get yourself in the environment and that is part of like, oh wait, everyone else is like me, oh wait, like actually I like, you can get yourself more ready whereas I think if you didn’t sign up when you did, then you still wouldn’t be ready, like you’d always just be continuing to wait to be ready and a lot of people go into the like, and we don’t think this way with school, it just is with business like, okay, well, once I’m making more money, then I’ll sign up but it’s like, okay, once I’m fit, then I’ll join the gym or do you join the gym to get fit? Do you join PGSD so you can do the things you need to do and make money? So it’s like, sometimes we just get it backwards and like, I’m a smart and I’ve done this times before, well, I’m smart, I’m like resourceful, I can just listen to all the things on the podcast, like I can piece it together and often that’s what happens to me when I’m not really fully committed, I’m just like, I don’t really believe it’s possible and it feels a little bit risky to really believe it, so let me just kind of like piecemeal my way there so it feels like if it doesn’t work out, then at least I didn’t waste money or whatever but really for the person listening to this who knows they have potential, they’re smart, they know what they need to do, they’re not doing it, join us inside PGSD so you can do the things and then as you mentioned, you can also get coaching and support as you become successful and then figure out navigating that and like having that identity shift as well because a lot of times it’s like, what if I’m consistent but then I can’t maintain it or like, what if I start doing the things and then I’ve built a business and I wanna change that business, well, you can just change the business, like you can just use that momentum and put it in a different direction instead of being like, I’m gonna sand it to sandstill until I’m 100% sure, like our profession is great.
Rose: It doesn’t happen, right? Like it doesn’t happen. The other thing I would add is that I feel like even though, so I would say I’m a good example of, especially since this was the last time for lifetime access, right? And it’s so funny because I feel like I’m like an ad, like you planted me but I’m saying this because I genuinely believe it that like I’m a good example of even if you were to do nothing for the next 18 months or 15 months or whatever and that I feel like I’ve been really active a couple months, so worth it, so, so worth it.
And the other thing that I wanted to say that in case anybody is kind of wondering and just because I’ve had this actual experience myself, I do still go back and forth between listening to the Perfectionism Project and then listening to our private coaching calls. And what I would say the difference is for people who are maybe wondering is the, I feel like it’s like the concepts in the Perfectionism Project and then the application in the PGSD Private. So the level of specificity and application and it’s like you just get, like if you think of case studies, it’s like I love reading case studies of any like area that I’m studying.
And so it’s like you just get a whole bunch of case studies of both getting yourself coached and then you get to listen to all these people being coached.
Sam: Yeah, and you get to see it applied, not just in one way, but like you see it all the different ways and you get like the nuance and the depth of it. And yeah, it’s so important because there is such a difference between what I create on the Perfectionism Project and then what we do in PGSD.
And a lot of PGSDers all listen to the podcast and continue to do that. But yeah, PGSD isn’t just like the same as the podcast.
Rose: And I think that’s one way that we can easily talk ourselves out of the level of investment is like, oh, well, I should be able to do it with the podcast, with the Perfectionism Project.
And I do wanna say that they’re fundamentally different, like they’re quite different. Yeah.
Sam: Amazing, thank you so much for sharing everything that you have shared.
Oh, it has been so good talking to you. Any final words or are you ready to wrap up?
Rose: I just wanna say like that it’s so funny because going back to what you said about feeling like we have to have the thing, I’ve had so many of those experiences. When I went to grad school, I felt like I had to have a graduate degree to apply for graduate school.
Being with publishing, I feel like I have to have published a book in order to apply to publish. Like there’s so many things that can feel like that. And I just wanna reassure anyone listening, that as Perfectionist, I think we’re extra like that on ourselves.
And this is really a community of people that is just so warm and supportive and ready to welcome. And also we have a wide variety of current cashflow levels, of goals, of industries. So there’s really so much room for whoever’s listening, whatever their field and industry and work is.
Yeah, it would be wonderful to have more people in there.
Sam: Amazing. Thank you so much, Rose.
Rose: Thanks, Sam.
Outro
If this episode resonated with you, you want to be inside Perfectionist Getting Shit Done, aka PGSD. PGSD is the business program for perfectionists, and inside you’ll learn business strategy, weekly planning, and how to follow through with your plans in a way that works for your perfectionist brain, which means you’ll be able to build a fulfilling full-time business without burning yourself out. The doors are opening on the 17th of June for one week only, and this is your final opportunity to join PGSD with lifetime access.
To join the waitlist and find out more, go to samlaurabrown.com/pgsd.