Episode 388: Overcoming Perfectionism with Manifestation Babe [Interview]

Episode 388: Overcoming Perfectionism with Manifestation Babe [Interview]

We still get questions about a popular interview I did with Kathrin Zenkina of The Manifestation Babe Podcast in 2020. And since this is also one of my favourite interviews and still so relevant today, we wanted to make sure you got to hear it on this episode of The Perfectionism Project.

Kathrin is a world renowned master manifestation and mindset coach. She is a #1-Amazon-Best-Selling author, host of the Top-10 Podcast: The Manifestation Babe Podcast, powerhouse expert in the art of manifestation, and founder of the globally recognized personal development brand – Manifestation Babe® – which has grown into a $17M+ company in just 6 years.

I know you’re going to appreciate the conversation we had about overcoming procrastination and perfectionism. Tune in to understand what perfectionism and the all-or-nothing mindset is, the true cause of perfectionism and how to finally become a non-procrastinator for good.

If you’re someone who’s been feeling stuck and getting in your own way, this episode is for you.

Note: Thank you Kathrin for giving me permission to share this interview on the podcast. We appreciate you!

Find the full episode transcript and show notes at samlaurabrown.com/episode388.

In This Episode You’ll Learn:

  • What perfectionism is and where it comes from
  • The difference between a fixed and growth mindset
  • Why perfectionists overthink
  • How to change your identity to align with being a non-procrastinator
  • How to break through feeling guilt when resting

Featured In The Episode:

Listen To The Episode

Listen to the episode on the player above, click here to download the episode and take it with you or listen anywhere you normally listen to podcasts – just find Episode 388 of The Perfectionism Project Podcast!

Subscribe To The Perfectionism Project Podcast



Hi, and welcome to another episode of The Perfectionism Project, a podcast full of perfectionism advice for entrepreneurs. My name is Sam Laura Brown, I help entrepreneurs release that perfectionism handbrake so they can get out of that way, and build a fulfilling and profitable business. I’m the founder of the Power Planning Course and Perfectionist Getting Shit Done, which is otherwise known as PGSD. And for even more perfectionism advice to help you with your business, you can follow me on Instagram @perfectionismproject.

Hey, this is Renae, Sam’s marketing manager. We still get messages to this day about an interview Sam did with Kathrin from the manifestation babe podcast. And since it’s one of Sam’s favorite interviews, I wanted to make sure you got to hear it here. If you haven’t heard of Manifestation Babe. Kathrin is a number one Amazon bestselling author and host of the top 10 podcast, The Manifestation Babe. She’s a powerhouse expert in the art of manifestation and founder of the globally recognized personal development brand, Manifestation Babe which has grown into a $17 million plus company in just six years.

This episode you’re about to hear is eye-opening. So much so Kathrin recorded another podcast episode three weeks later called I’m a perfectionist, and I’m finally admitting it. I’ll put this episode in the show notes. Kathrin explains how it didn’t occur to her that she was a perfectionist until her team was discussing their takeaways from the interview you’re about to hear. All right let’s get into the interview then.

Kathrin Zenkina
Hello gorgeous souls. I am so excited to bring on my special guest today, Sam Laura Brown. Hey, Sam, how are you doing today?

Sam Laura Brown
I’m amazing. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Kathrin Zenkina
Oh my god, I’m so excited to have you because what you are about to talk about today is stuff that I know I personally have not brought to the podcast, and stuff like perfectionism and procrastination is like the plague, right? That keeps us from becoming the best versions of ourselves and becoming successful versions of ourselves. And this is really what prevents people from manifesting their dream lives. So I am so freaking excited that you are on here. Sam, can you please share with us in just a couple of sentences, what is it that you do and what is it that you help people with?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, so I work with perfectionist, I help them to beat procrastination, overcome perfectionism, and become their best selves. And I have a podcast called, The Perfectionism Project. And I also have a group coaching program called Perfectionist Getting Shit Done. And I really got into all of this through my own journey if you want to get into that, because I did not know I was a perfectionist until a few years ago.

Kathrin Zenkina
Okay, I love that you said that I didn’t know as a perfectionist, because I feel like this is such a subconscious thing where I know that I’m a recovering perfectionist as well. But if you were to ask me a couple years ago, Kathrin, are you a perfectionist? I would have been like, what are you talking about? What is a perfectionist? So can you go into just a little bit about you know how you came because you are clearly the perfectionist queen. I mean, perfectionism is all over you, like in terms of the name of your podcast and the name of your courses, the name of what you do. So clearly, you are an expert in this, how the hell did you get into this?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, so just a bit of background before I get into that, that perfectionist aren’t perfect people, perfectionists are people who feel ashamed. They’re not perfect. And so a lot of the people I help, like, I can relate to what she’s saying, but I’m just not perfect enough to be a perfectionist. And I love Brene Brown’s definition of perfectionism that, it’s this idea that if I just look perfect, and I can do everything perfectly, then I can avoid shame, judgment and blame. So perfectionism really is just a strategy to avoid shame.

And it’s also related to the fix and growth mindset, which we can get into as well. But when I really figured out I was a perfectionist, is when I started my blog. So I started in 2013. And I am so in love with podcasts, because that is how I got into this whole world. I was driving to my job. And I was a full time Uni student and I just hated listening to radio ads. And I discovered podcasts. And I was listening to all of these business podcasts. And just because I was so interested in psychology and everything going on, and then I started finding these podcasts, and they were talking about blogging.

So I decided eventually, after six months, because I was so scared, I decided I’m going to start a blog, I started one about how to make the most of your 20s it was called smart 20s. And it was really because there are people who are talking about their perfect life and people who are talking about their broke in complaining, but there was no one having that honest struggle of like, holy shit, I’m trying my best. And I have no idea what I’m doing. So I started that blog. But that was when the perfectionism really started to come up for me.

So I hid my blog from my loved ones, from my family, from my friends, I was so embarrassed about it, I thought Who the hell am I to be sharing any of this with anyone and I didn’t even at that point, have an opinion that I was sharing. I was literally just writing a few sentences and linking to someone else like linking to a blog post or to a YouTube video. And I was still so embarrassed about it. And I was also publishing blog posts, and then I would edit them after they were already published. It was just such a struggle. And I thought for the first couple of years of that, that it was just a motivation problem that I just needed to figure out how to stay motivated to be consistent.

And it wasn’t until I really started to figure out from Brene Brown and Carol Dweck and other people like that about perfectionism and what it really is, because a lot of us just know perfectionism as being that thing we say when we’re in a job interview, and they say what’s your weakness? And it says tongue in cheek and sort of Oh yeah, I’m a perfectionist. And I just didn’t think I was perfect enough to be perfectionist. And as well, and this is something we can get into is that perfectionism works when you’re in the school system. And it really helps us to succeed in a lot of ways because that is a last minute and perfectionist leave things into the last minute.

So that last minute does come when you’re in school. But when you leave school or when you leave like having a boss and there’s no last minute That’s when it really comes up when we are putting ourselves out there. And when there’s no one to say, Okay, this is due right now. So that’s a bit of an overview of how I really came to realize that I was a perfectionist, but there’s so many different things we could talk about within that. But that’s really, yeah.

Kathrin Zenkina
Oh my God, you just sparked so many things. Because first of all, what did you say perfectionism is avoiding the shame of not being perfect. Is that what you said?

Sam Laura Brown
It’s not really about avoiding the shame of not being perfect. So perfectionists are a shame. They’re not perfect, but it’s really just about avoiding shame. And shame is, of course, a human emotion that everyone experiences. But it’s really this strategy to avoid feeling ashamed. And it’s because in our childhood, we had an experience where we felt incredibly ashamed. And we decided I never want to feel that way again. And so the answer to that, like, everyone reacts to shame in different ways and has a different strategy.

But perfectionist, it’s really about perfecting everything in pleasing to perfectionist, procrastinate, they overthink, they people, please. Because they don’t want to have that shameful feeling. The tragedy of it is that perfectionist feel ashamed most of the time, they shame themselves, they beat themselves up horribly. So it’s not an effective strategy to avoid shame. But that’s really what perfectionism is all about.

Kathrin Zenkina
Wow. Okay. So the way that you’re describing it, to me is almost like someone putting on this cloak around them to hide who they truly are authentically. And obviously, we as human beings, were imperfect creatures. If we were to be perfect, we would not be human beings. But guess what, ladies and gentlemen, we are human beings, we are here to experience life. And if we were perfect, there would be nothing to learn, we went and grow, we wouldn’t evolve like there would be nothing to there would be no such thing as creation, really, because creation is all about creating the life that you want. And life isn’t perfect, right. And so if you are to constantly get stuck in perfectionism, then you would essentially stop yourself from being a creator.

And something Sam that you mentioned, that just blew my mind, I wanted to just bring it up again, was you were talking about how we are essentially trained to be perfectionist in school. And when I thought about was, you know, we get grades for what we do in school. And I remember growing up being this little girl who would constantly be afraid of what her mom would think of her whatever grade she would get, that would not be an A. And so if I got a B, or I got a C, or God forbid, I got a D, thank God, I never got an F because that would just I would get I’d be grounded for the rest of my life.

But I remember just like constantly trying to figure out, how do I get my homework to be perfect? How do I get the perfect test grade? How do I answer this question perfectly? And it just became an obsession that I didn’t realize I had until you just mentioned that that did in fact, get carried on into my life, and especially my business, in the very beginning. And as you were talking about how you were so embarrassed and ashamed of your blog, and you just felt like you needed it to be perfect in order for it to get published and stuff like that. Like, I could not relate to that more.

Sam, how does perfectionism relate to procrastination? Because I asked my audience, what questions they have for you and I kid you not, absolutely, everybody has been asking, how do we stop procrastinating? Like we are using goals? We know what we want, but for some reason, is it that we are procrastinating? Are we lacking motivation? Is there something wrong with us? Like what is really getting in the way of us knowing what we need to be doing? But for some reason not doing it?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, I think that’s such a obviously it’s a question I get all the time as well. And I want to say, first of all, it’s not a motivation problem. We think it is that if we can just you know, buy that cute workout outfit or the perfect planner, that we will be able to stay motivated and be consistent. But it goes so much deeper than that. And I was only really able to make progress with it procrastination and and all of that when I recognized that it was not an issue of motivation.

It was that I was trying to withhold effort, so that when I failed, I could blame the fact that I didn’t try my hardest, instead of having to feel so vulnerable because I tried my hardest and my hardest wasn’t good enough. So when we have that perfectionist mindset, we’re believing that we’re not good enough because shame is that fear of disconnection and that feeling that we’re not worthy or that we don’t belong. And so of course, we don’t want to have any other evidence. We don’t want to create any evidence that will prove that because we already believe it. So to have it proven is extremely painful.

So we procrastinate really as a way to just to have something to blame to let ourselves off the hook and example of this is in school. So at uni, I would always leave things until the last minute, I thought I was so good at doing last minute work, by the way, a lot of perfectionist have that story that they just need that pressure to do their best work. And I had a lot of evidence for that as well, when I had tried to do it beforehand. I wasn’t I didn’t get as good results as when I did it at the last minute. But when I procrastinated and left it to the last minute, it meant that if I didn’t do well, I could say Oh, well, but I didn’t try my hardest, so it wasn’t as painful.

And when I did well, and this is how it really reinforces itself is that I went well imagine how well I would have done if I tried my hardest. So either way, it makes us feel smarter. Because if we fail at it, we protect that identity we have we protect our intelligence because we can blame the procrastination. And when we succeed, it kind of amplifies it. Because we can say Well, imagine how well I would have done. And a lot of perfectionist a part of the reason it’s created like we have this mindset reinforced is because we are praised by very well meaning people for our intelligence. And for what I know of your story, this was a case with you as well.

But definitely for me, I was praised going up for being smart, and for being intelligent. And so that meant I didn’t want to do anything. That would mean I wouldn’t continue to get that approval from others. Like that was how I got praise and love. Like in my mind, that was what I made it mean that if I’m not smart, and if people realize I’m not actually as smart as they think they won’t continue to love me, of course, it’s at a subconscious level, I wasn’t consciously thinking that. What that does, it doesn’t make us try our hardest to be smart.

What it does is it makes us only do things we know we’ll be good at. And for a lot of perfectionist who then go into business or trying to do their own thing. Because that’s related to intellect. It really comes up that vulnerability around like what if people realize I’m not smart? What if I can’t do this, and so we withhold effort, which is procrastination, we withhold effort. So we can blame lack of effort of will I would be successful, if I could just figure out what to do with my life, if I could just figure out my business name. So that we don’t have to feel that shame around, maybe I’m not smart, and I’m not gonna have that love from others.

Kathrin Zenkina
Oh my God, you have my mind like spinning in circles right now. Because I am just remembering so many situations in my life where that’s true. Because I was also always praise for my intelligence, and everything that you just mentioned, it just resonates so deeply with me. And I know that, you know, a huge part of why people don’t even bother going after what they want is because they are so focused on the potential disappointment. And for them, it is so much, I guess, easier or more enticing to not even try because not even trying is better than trying and then ending up disappointed anyway.

And I see that so much also with my, in my community, like people when they are beginning this process of manifesting, it’s like the bigger the goal and the bigger the dream, the more the procrastination, right, because they have been able to compare in the past to achieving a smaller goal. And so they think, Oh, this goal is going to be easy for me. So I might as well do it, this goal is going to be easy for me. So I might as well believe in it. I might as well go after it. But this vision that I have for my life, this is I don’t even know how to do this.

So therefore, how am I supposed to like I don’t know what Kathrin, I don’t know what actions to take, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to think I don’t know what to believe. And so therefore, they end up waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. And their vision is still there. However, years and years and years go by and they have yet still to finally start progressing on this big vision. So wow, thank you so much for sharing that because I’m just like, This is giving me like so much insight, even more insight into my students, my audience, my community and just like what their behaviors are and why they are behaving the way that they behave.

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah. And I think it’s something as well that a lot of us are really frustrated with ourselves if we’re procrastinating and we then shame ourselves to get I should know better than to be procrastinating. And a lot of the people that I help really believe in that potential. It’s like this conflicting beliefs where they really truly believe in their potential. They believe that they’re meant for more than a life where they’re just going to the nine to five job and paying the bills and ticking the checkboxes. But then at the same time they have this belief that they’re not good enough.

And that if they did try, they might fail or they might be disappointed, perfectionist have a huge fear around disappointment and wasting effort. And that’s because perfectionist see effort as a sign of inadequacy. And so they don’t want to waste effort, they would rather withhold that effort and procrastinate and not try then give it a shot. But unfortunately, in our efforts to avoid disappointment, we create disappointment, because it’s very disappointing not to ever try anything, especially if you believe in your potential and you believe that you’re meant for more. But we think, Oh, no, it’s better to just not try because then I won’t have to experience that pain of failure. But failure doesn’t have to be painful.

And that’s been one of the biggest shifts myself is that I started to be able to reframe failure or not getting the result I wanted and making it mean less about myself and perfectionist intellectually understand that failure is important, and that it’s part of success, but they will still try to avoid it. So if someone who’s in a growth mindset will believe that it’s better to try and fail than to have never tried it all. Someone in the fixed mindset, which is a perfectionist mindset, intellectually understands that, but they they operate on the basis that it’s better to not try than it is to fail.

Kathrin Zenkina
Sam, can you give us just a little bit more insight into because you keep mentioning growth mindset versus fixed mindset? Can you just describe those two different mindsets just so for those people who are listening, have never heard that before, don’t really know what a fixed mindset entails or a growth mindset entails. Just to give them a little more context to that.

Sam Laura Brown
Of course, and I mentioned this part of it so often, because when people have conversations about perfectionism, they don’t really talk about the solution. They say, okay, just stop caring what people think just do it just stop trying to be perfect. But we intellectually get it. And I was so frustrated for so long. Because I was like, Yeah, I get that I’m not meant to be perfect. I also understand that nobody is perfect. I understand how limiting it is. But what am I meant to do? So getting into the growth mindset is the answer. And that’s what I teach.

So the growth mindset, and these were ideas created by Dr. Carol Dweck, she has an incredible book called Mindset if anyone’s interested in diving into this. So the growth mindset is where someone believes that their talents, their abilities, and their intelligence can be improved upon with practice and with effort. So the growth mindset isn’t about how much do you like self help podcasts? Because when I first heard about this mindset, I was like, of course, I have a growth mindset. Like, I love reading, I’m obsessed with personal development. There’s no way that I wouldn’t be in anything other than a growth mindset.

But when I understood the fixed mindset, that’s when it really clicked together. So the fixed mindset is believing that your talents, your abilities and your intelligence have fixed, that they can’t be changed. And so when someone’s in a fixed mindset, which is what perfectionist have, they believe that effort is a sign of inadequacy. And they believe that everything they do is evidence of whether or not they’re good enough. So someone in a fixed mindset wants everything to feel natural, and effortless.

The problem is, though, that if we’re going to achieve anything amazing, it’s not going to feel natural or effortless. While learning new things. We have to create new beliefs as always that messy middle, that when you’re in a fixed mindset, you don’t want that to be a messy middle, because that’s a sign that you’re lacking that natural ability. And as well as a society, people are praised for being naturally talented or naturally gifted. And that really reinforces this fixed mindset. Most of society are in a fixed mindset, there are only very few people who are in a growth mindset.

So just to give an idea as well, someone in a growth mindset is excited when they fail. Like, that’s something that’s so satisfying to them, because that means there’s room for improvement. Someone in a fixed mindset makes that mean something about themselves, they make it me know, I’m a shit person, I’m not good enough. And that will deter them from trying harder, but it’s possible to learn how to get into a growth mindset.

So it’s just a set of beliefs. The same way of perfectionism, if you can relate to what I’m talking about with perfectionism, it’s not who you are, it’s not how you’re always going to be. It’s just a set of beliefs that served you when you were a kid, and you’re trying to stay alive. But now that set of beliefs isn’t serving you and you can do things to get into the growth mindset, which will have you showing up consistently and have you been willing to have that messy middle. So that’s just a brief overview of the difference between the two mindsets, and also they’re on a spectrum.

So I don’t like to think of it as you’re either in the fixed mindset or the growth mindset. There’s a spectrum between the two and often people are somewhere in between. And you also have a different place in that spectrum for every area of your life. So for example, with the people that I work with, they are very much in a fixed mindset when it comes to anything intellectual. So business, Academia anything that’s related to being smart is where they’re most in the fixed mindset.

But you they might be in health and fitness, for example, in a growth mindset, or they might be in relationships in a growth mindset. Or they might have a hobby where they’re in a growth mindset where they’re willing to fail and keep trying. They don’t make that mean anything personal about them. So part of it is learning like recognizing that you’re already in that great mindset in one area of your life, then you can borrow from that and start applying it to the areas where you’re more in that fixed mindset.

Kathrin Zenkina
I love that. So basically, what you’re saying is that there’s always room for improvement. And that’s part of the game of life here you guys is like, there’s going to be room for improvement. But if you come from a fixed mindset, as Sam was talking about, like, you’re going to think that you are just the way that you are. And that’s your identity, and there’s nothing you can do to change it.

And someone who’s in a growth mindset, they’re going to seek out whatever it is that they need, whatever resources, tools, mentors, in order for them to increase their skills, increase their abilities, increase their intelligence, whatever it is that they need, in order for them to become the best version of themselves. So thank you so much for that distinction. Sam, how does a perfectionist start feeling more adequate? Like you talked about, you know, perfectionism is all about that, that avoidance of feeling inadequate.

So when you have a when you have a client who comes to your student who comes to you, and they are a perfectionist, who is ready to let go of that set of beliefs, who’s ready to let go of that identity? Like, what are those first steps like, like, how do we go from being paralyzed by perfectionism to finally letting go of that, and going away from procrastination, and finally taking action on the things that are most important to us in our lives?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah. So if I may share my story of how I like really started to do that myself. But also, I wanted to mention as well that a lot of people in this space and on this topic, talk about, you know, believing I am enough, and things like that. And I personally haven’t found that to be effective. So if anyone else out there is trying to, like, tell themselves, I am enough, I am enough, and it isn’t landing. I can totally relate to that. And I think partly it’s because like, what does that even mean? Like, I’m enough what like, it’s such a vague thing. But what really worked for me, this required a lot of deep personal work. And it doesn’t mean you have to get back into your past. But I had such a big breakthrough.

So basically, what happened for me, and how I create, like, got into this mindset is, when I was growing up, my mom was sick, she had breast cancer, and she died when I was 11. And as a child, I made that mean something about me. And I used to not even be able to talk about it without crying. And now I can talk about it without there being any emotion because it’s not because I didn’t love her to death. Like I love her so much. But it’s because I had I was ashamed about it.

And I thought that it was this grief that I had, that it was unprocessed or something like that. But I realized when I was 26. So I’m 28 about turning 29. It wasn’t until I was 26 that I actually realized that I had made her death mean something about me personally. And that was because I was a child. And I had made it mean, there’s something wrong with me that I don’t have a normal mother like everyone else. And that I’m like different because everyone else I’m going to school with has a mum, my mum isn’t here anymore. And I remember as well as a kid after she passed away.

I decided like I’m never going to tell anyone about this. Like unless it comes up like it kind of became something that I didn’t want to talk about because I was ashamed about it. I just remember. So clearly, I was at my primary school. So it was year six for me when she passed away. And I remember just thinking like, I am never going to let anyone hitting me over this. Because often what will happen is, you know, obviously, no one knows what to say to an 11 year old whose mom has died. But I just felt like I don’t want to be made different because of this.

And so I bottled it up. I didn’t tell anyone about it. Unless it came up and someone would say, oh, like what is your mom do for work or something like that, and then it would come up. But otherwise, I wasn’t telling anyone about it. And I just was kind of like ignoring it in a sense. But it wasn’t until I was 26. And I went to an event called the landmark forum. But you don’t have to be in an event like that to have a breakthrough like I did. But I think you call people in your real life and have conversations, which is terrifying.

And so when I was at that event, I called my dad and I just like you take full responsibility for how you feel and everything like that. And I just had a conversation with him where I was like when this happened in my childhood, but that meant I wasn’t good. Nothing kind of just thought I was just like sharing reality and what had happened. And then he was just like, What the hell are you talking about? Like, what that didn’t like this thing that happened didn’t mean you aren’t good enough. It meant this. That thing didn’t mean you weren’t good enough. It meant this.

And like he was just like this crazy moment where when I was a kid I had like, I like to think of it as I put on these glasses of like I’m not good enough. And then because I had that belief and I know you talked about this as well. Your brain is always filtering reality to show you what you expect to see and it’s your reticular activating system is really just filtering everything and distorting and deleting so that you get that reflected back to you. And so when I was a kid, I decided there’s something wrong with me, I’m not good enough. I like put on these glasses.

And then for my life until I was 26, everything I interpreted it through that lens of how could this mean I’m not good enough, like I made everything fit in with that story that I had about myself and a lot of perfectionists really struggle because they’re like, I have supportive friends and family, I’m doing really well like I’m ticking all the boxes. And still I feel inadequate, like, what am I meant to do about it am I kind of like on that treadmill to external validation, and like maybe if I just achieved the next thing, and the next thing, the next thing, then I’ll finally be good enough.

But for me, what it took was having an extremely vulnerable conversation where I was just crying through the whole thing. And realizing that like at that event, I really realized that I was ashamed about it, that it wasn’t a grief thing, that the reason that I like had a physical reaction, whenever I talked about it was shame. And a lot of us have had those experiences where we share something we’re ashamed about. And our body is physically, like shaking or reacting. We’re just like, it’s, it feels beyond our control.

And so I’d realized at that event that it was shame, but it wasn’t until I actually had that conversation with my dad, and he just like shattered, like he just without realizing it just completely shattered this idea I had about what had happened and what it all meant, and just made me see like, Oh, I’ve just been interpreting everything in a way that meant I was good enough. And it could kind of like I could take off those glasses. And it doesn’t mean I feel like 100% amazing all the time now. But that really like 90% of my chatter about not being good enough, just dissipated when that happened.

So I know that’s not like a very actionable answer, perhaps. But for me, that was what it really took to actually have that moment and be willing to do the personal development work, to really have a look at the story that I was telling myself about my childhood and what happened and the way that the world was, and to then have that perspective and for it to be completely reframed. And it took me being willing to be vulnerable, and to share what I thought was happening, to have that reframe be available. And the reason I’m a coach, and I love coaching is because that’s what we do. As coaches, we help people see the alternatives and everything like that.

But that was what it took for me to actually start feeling like I was good enough. So I don’t want to be here and saying, you know, just stop believing you’re good enough and tell yourself that I am enough? Because I don’t think that that is the answer. But it doesn’t mean it has to be like this childhood thing that you go back into the past. Perfectionism is created by a present day thoughts. It does not come from the past, like our thoughts, create our feelings, our feelings, create our actions and our actions, create our results, our present day thoughts.

So it doesn’t mean you have to go in and do any like childhood work. Like it’s different. It’s not therapy that’s needed. But it can be helpful to see, when did you decide that you weren’t good enough that there was something wrong with you. And for some people, this will be something that others were deemed to be traumatic. For other people, it’ll be a very like innocuous everyday event, it might be like a teacher had said something or a kid just laughed at them.

Like it could be something that to anyone else looking in. They’d be like, that’s not a big deal. But in that moment, you made a decision. I like you felt ashamed. And you’re like, I never want to feel this way again. And so as a kid it your brain was like, Okay, let’s just make sure that never happens, by making sure that we’re perfect, and that we always look perfect, so that we never have to feel that. So I don’t know if that’s helpful.

But for me, it really took having a look at what I had made things mean in my childhood and how I had put on these glasses at some point that I was then filtering everything to mean I’m not good enough. But for anyone, again, I don’t really want to say you have to go in and do all this deep childhood work. But it can be helpful if you can identify like, when did I decide that there was something wrong with me? And if it doesn’t have to be something that seems traumatic to others.

Kathrin Zenkina
So I’m you know, I’m all about the deep, deep childhood where I’ve done so much of it. And I really do encourage people to do it. But again, not everyone is ready for it. Right? So I totally see what you mean. And thank you so much for sharing your such a vulnerable story with us. Because as you were sharing your story, you know, you mentioned how it’s about like you making a decision at some point. And it’s so true. It doesn’t have to be something traumatic like It doesn’t have to be something, first of all doesn’t have to be something that others consider traumatic, because trauma can come in a wide spread of ranges.

Like for you, it could be something that a teacher said. And if you were to tell your friend that that happened to you, they could be like, really like, really Kathrin, like you’ve depended your whole life around this one thing that happened. And for someone else like Sam, it could be something so hard and so dramatic like and traumatic, like, you know, her mother dying at such an early age.

So don’t feel like there’s a hierarchy around trauma, everybody experiences trauma. The point here is to find where you made that decision, where this event now means something about you. And the story then can get carried on forever, until you finally gain awareness of it and nip it in the bud. Like for me, Sam, I had this sixth grade teacher who assigned us as an English teacher who assigned us an essay.

And the essay was like a storytelling essay. We’re practicing our storytelling skills, right? So I thought I was writing this brilliant story about this girl who goes out with her friends and her dog to the mountains and gets locked up in a cave somehow, like I don’t remember what happened. Like, was there like an earthquake that caused a bunch of rocks to fall and they got stuck in a cave? Or did someone intentionally put them there? I don’t even remember the story.

That’s not the point. The point is, is that a week later, I got a paper, my paper back to me. And in red writing. I first of all got to see on this essay, my story. And in red writing. My teacher said you are a very boring storyteller. You’re not a great storyteller Kathrin. And you’re very boring one. And you know, first of all, I think back right now as an adult, like being like, Are you kidding me? Like a teacher said that to an 11 year old kid like WTF. But back then as a kid, you don’t know any different.

You don’t know. You look at teachers and other adults and other other you know, mentor figures in your life as people who are constantly telling you the truth, and they know everything about everything and everything that they tell you, you must believe. And so I was like, I was so ashamed of just I never told another story again. I never anytime I had another English writing assignment, I would make sure to avoid all the ones where I’m telling stories, because I truly believe that I was boring storyteller.

And this carried on into my business you guys. Up until my adulthood when I started manifestation, babe, I thought I was a sucky storyteller. And over and over and over, people would always tell me that, you know, I would record a podcast or I’d go on live stream or whatever. And people be like, Kathrin, I love your stories. I love your stories. But we can tell that you’re not owning your stories. It’s almost as if you think that we’re bored by your story. And I even had a coach that I hired a storytelling coach, where she’s like, Kathrin, when you’re telling stories stop assuming that we’re bored.

Like, don’t skip over all the parts that were I’m literally hanging, like, I’m literally sitting on the edge of my chair being like, holy shit, what’s going to happen next. And here you are, like just skipping over it very lightly, because you think that I need that you need to stop the story. Because it’s so boring, and you need to move on. And that was the day similarly to you, Sam, when you had that conversation with your father, where I was like, Oh, my God, I have let this story from the sixth grade, carry in to my business at the age of you know, 25-26-27. Like, why am I doing that?

And having that awareness is what allowed me to then choose new thoughts, and how you said, it’s as simple as changing your thoughts in present day like you don’t have to relive every single thought, from that time in 11th grade or sixth grade or that time, when you were three or that time when you were five years old, and something else happened. It’s just a matter of catching it right now. Would you agree with me, Sam, it’s like, it’s just a matter of you just being like, Okay, this is a story that I keep telling myself that’s holding me back. So how can I change that story starting today? Would you agree?

Sam Laura Brown
100% it’s really about catching it today. And it might just be that someone like a coach in your example, or someone just has that conversation with you where they bring your awareness to the fact that you have this story that you weren’t actually aware was operating. And just to clarify, I believe in the childhood work, I think it’s so powerful, but the reason I said like, don’t feel like you have to go way way into it is because when people have that perfectionist mindset, they want to find like the perfect root.

Kathrin Zenkina
Oh, my god, yeah.

Sam Laura Brown
A lot of people I work with, like, oh, no, I just have to get to the root I have to get to the root I have to get to the root and often it’s nothing that’s like buried really deep. And when we have this idea that things are buried really deep, it makes it so hard to access them. But if we’re like, actually, it’s probably plain as day and someone else could look at us and be like, Wow, they must have this story about this. It’s covered under all of this stuff.

And we have to go in and a lot of times, perfectionist who love personal development, will stop themselves from actually like doing the work they need to do and showing up like, this is kind of a sneaky form of procrastination is at the back. And I can’t start taking action yet, because I’m still having negative thoughts. And I have to get to the root of what’s causing it. But really, you just have to start taking action and be courageous.

And also recognize that a lot of times those stories aren’t so deeply rooted, they’re plain as day that we can’t see them because we’re the ones wearing the glasses like that fish in water that it doesn’t know it’s in water than water. So you can just sometimes it just takes one conversation like it happened with both of us. That’s why I’ve mentioned like, it doesn’t have to be this deep work. Because when someone’s in a perfectionist mindset, they can kind of latch on to that and it will stop them from actually showing up in the world and doing what they want to do.

Kathrin Zenkina
Okay, I love that you mentioned that because I was just thinking about how so many of my students, they come into my academy like Manifestation Babe Academy, and I share with them you know, the manifestation process like this is how reality works. This is how you manifest bla bla bla bla bla. And I will constantly reiterate to them. That even though there’s a science to manifestation, like it happens in the realm of quantum physics, like there is a science it’s been studied. But each of us have our own manifesting style, which comes out as the art of manifestation.

And how it really comes down to the fact that there’s an art to certainty and how all of us create certainty very differently in our lives. Like for some people, they need to meditate every single day in order to feel in alignment with their life. For others, it’s visualization that helps them get crystal clear on what it is that they want. Other people love to journal. I mean, like I give them the entire recipe book, but I remind them constantly like listen, there’s no one way or one right way to do this.

You have options, right? However, I still get those students who are like constantly being like, Kathrin, if I am doing hypnosis, and I need to scratch my nose, and my nose itches. And then I scratch my nose. Am I not doing the hypnosis right anymore? Or Kathrin, today I was in meditation, and I had this weird thought. Does this mean that I have to do it again. Or Kathrin, I intended on manifesting $100 today, and I received a bill worth $25 in the form of a ticket that I got when I was grocery shopping with my husband does this mean I’m doing it wrong.

And there’s constantly this thing around around right versus wrong. And I find my students just overthinking and over analyzing everything and I wanted to ask you like why is it that we overthink and overanalyze? Does it have to do with this perfectionism as well? Like, what what what goes on in our brains that causes us to constantly think that there’s a right way to do life and there’s a wrong way to do life.

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, so one of the biggest signs of perfectionism and that mindset being at work is being indecisive like perfectionist love, being confused and being overwhelmed. It feels very comfortable to them. And just fear being in that place where they’re like, there needs to be this perfect way to do it. And there’s this right and wrong and all that judgment. And it is about there’s that shame that we’re trying to avoid. And again, we think if we can just do everything perfect, and make all the right decisions and do everything the right way, which leads, of course to overthinking.

Because when we’re trying to find the perfect way, which doesn’t actually exist, you’re going to overthink it and analyze it. But part of it is because we have that belief system that it needs to be perfect or I’m going to be judged. And the reason why so scared of judgment and we people please is because we’re judging ourselves so harshly and projecting that onto everyone else and thinking, well, if I’m thinking this, then everyone else must think it like trying to get that external validation to make up for that.

But as most people have discovered, that there’s no amount of external validation that can compensate for the lack of your own validation for yourself. So we don’t want others to judge us because we’re judging us. And then it’s just going to amplify that judgment. And of course, we’re projecting it as well. But when it comes to there being this idea of right and wrong, it is about trying to avoid that shame that we think will come if we do choose the wrong way to do it. And then we fail and then we’re going to make that failure mean something about ourselves.

Also, there’s a lot of comfort in being undecided and in overthinking and overwhelm. A lot of perfectionist like that’s their emotional home. As soon as they get themselves out of overwhelm for a second, or they like give themselves permission to get going, it feels so uncomfortable, and like something’s gonna go wrong. And it’s just like, they want to crawl out of their skin. So they go back to being confused.

So they make a decision or unmake the decision. Or if they finally get clarity on something, they’ll go and get confused about something else, because it feels normal to be confused and overwhelmed and indecisive. And like in that place, which is uncomfortable for a lot of reasons, but comfortable because when you’re confused, and you’re not taking action, you can’t be failing.

Kathrin Zenkina
Oh my god, I love that you mentioned that especially emotional home. When I learned the concept of emotional home. When I went to several of Tony Robbins events, it just made so much sense. And I realized that my emotional home for me personally was always stress. And I found that I would constantly recreate situations in my life, there’d be a pattern where I would literally manifest something to be stressed out about because that’s all I’ve known that’s been in my emotional home growing up in abusive an abusive home when I was growing up, my parents divorced, parents second divorce, like just so many things have led to me constantly feeling like I need to stay stressed out in order for me to survive.

Because if I’m not stressed out and not constantly on edge, then I felt like I would not be prepared for some sort of misery to come my way. And I would always be expecting the other shoe to drop. And so I realized that I lived in stress. And even when I started my personal development journey, what I found was that I would keep creating stressful situations where I would manifest what I want and manifest a great life and be enjoying, you know, my week and everything would go well.

And then all of a sudden I would just manifest some sort of chaos to come on my path and cause me to feel stressed out. and when I felt stressed out in a weird like almost sick twisted way I would feel very like familiar with it and comfortable with it. And in a weird way I would kind of like it because it’s it’s it was like my, my signal from my I don’t know subconscious mind that this is where I belong.

And it took me a long time to rewire that and I’m still working on it. Like I still find myself sometimes overloading my calendar and putting way too much on my on my like to manifest a call to manifest list instead of to do lists now, but like and that was part of the switch for me there was to stop calling it to do list stop putting a bunch of shit on your to do list and start calling it to manifest lists because you will figure out a way to create a situation and a place and a time for you to get everything done. But I would still find myself like getting into this zone of familiarity.

And guys, if your subconscious mind is not rewired for what it is that you do want to experience in life, you will very easily keep going back to what is familiar. This is the reason why it’s so hard to change is not because the steps to change are hard. It’s they’re actually very easy. You guys all know what to do. If you want to achieve certain goals you guys all know that if you want to for instance lose weight then you guys know what to do.

There’s so many freaking books out there so many resources you want to get in shape, you know who to hire, you know who to talk to, you know what to do yet, yet yet, if we are not rewiring ourselves to be that identity of being a fit person and acting like a fit person from the identity of being a fit person, then we are going to try to behave like a fit person but then our subconscious mind is like no, this feels unfamiliar. What is familiar is for you to sit on your couch and eat french fries and watch TV and not move your body. And so this is something that’s so common that happens to us and so I love that you’re talking about this Sam, because I know that so many people struggle with this. And especially what I wanted to talk about with you was the concept of an all or nothing mindset.

And I know that I have been this hardcore where if I were to do something, it would have to be all. Like if I were to make a change in my life, it would have to be like every single aspect of that area of life. Like I couldn’t just for instance, like if it was around my nutrition, I couldn’t just stop eating sugar. It had to be everything. I had to change everything. And if God forbid, the next day, I have a piece of chocolate that has some sugar in it. I’m like, Oh, my God, I broke it. That’s it. Like I failed. And it’s nothing right? It’s either all or nothing. Where does this come from, Sam it also within this realm of perfectionism as well?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, so the all or nothing mindset. Many of us are familiar with it, it’s you either do something perfectly or not at all. And it’s just another symptom in a way that comes out of having that perfectionist mindset. Because when we are trying to avoid shame, and when we believe that effort is a sign of inadequacy, we want everything to be done perfectly.

But when there’s that bump in the road, or something happens, we get that feeling that Okay, now, this isn’t perfect anymore. And that feels vulnerable. We feel like okay, I’m being seen to put in an effort and I’m not getting the results. Or it’s just this kind of messy middle where we’re like, Oh, I’ve fallen off the wagon, like, there’s so much to go into the all or nothing mindset, but part of it is reinforced constantly by this language of being on the wagon or off the wagon or on off track, which really just reinforces it.

But it’s again, it’s just another way that this perfectionist mindset manifests in that we want to do everything perfectly or not at all, because it feels too vulnerable, vulnerable to be doing it, but to have it not be going perfect. So we’d rather quit. So what a lot of people do, and especially health and fitness, this comes up for a lot of perfectionist is that they will start something, they’ll do it perfectly.

So they’ll get like the new workout outfit, they’ll have the perfect plan or like do everything maybe for like, a week, two weeks, three weeks, like everything’s amazing, they are eating clean. And then something will happen. I either making a decision usually not to follow through with it at some point like because their identity and we do a lot of identity where it’s like your identity will pull you back, we always act in accordance with who we believe we are.

So at that point, they’re like, oh, shit, I’m not used to sticking to something for like three weeks, I better not follow through subconsciously, they’re thinking that. They won’t follow through. And then that feels so vulnerable to be showing up. But you’ve missed a day. And a lot of people as well, like I don’t teach to like try and get this perfect streak going. Because for a perfectionist, if they have a like they break that streak, they quit. If someone’s in a growth mindset, they can have the streak and then they miss a day and they get back on board with it. That’s great.

But I don’t recommend for perfectionist like trying to get a streak of something. So they will quit because it just feels so vulnerable, then they’ll wait to feel motivated and inspired again, then they’ll start again perfectly, then their identity will pull them back to quitting, they’ll quit, they’ll wait to feel inspired. And it’s just sad like I was in that for so long, especially with health and fitness. It was so frustrating because I was working out a lot. I was like putting in a lot of effort, but I wasn’t seeing any results because it was so inconsistent. It was like two perfect weeks, and then six weeks of not trying.

And then two perfect weeks and six weeks of not trying. But that whole time I was not trying, I was beating myself up for that. So it wasn’t like this nice reprieve from it, it was still felt like struggle the whole time. But it was the wrong kind of effort that I was putting in. And so I’ve done that work to get into a growth mindset around fitness. That was the first area of my life that I did the conscious work to get into a growth mindset with. And that changed everything for me. And it made exercise and health enjoyable. And it meant I don’t have these, like I’m on track, I’m off track.

Like, there’s none of this guilt and shame around it. And it was so amazing to do that. And now it’s about applying that to business and things like that, for me personally, like I’m still on that journey of getting into a growth mindset in that area. And I’ve made such huge progress. But the all or nothing mindset is really like one of the most the biggest signs of that perfectionist mindset, and it doesn’t help us achieve any kind of results.

Kathrin Zenkina
So Sam, how do we you know, if we are in that position where we you know, as we’re listening to this podcast, we’re like, oh my God, that’s that’s me. Like, that’s me. I’m, you know, quote unquote, perfect for two weeks, and then I fall off the bandwagon for six weeks. And I know this isn’t serving me because at the end of it when all the weeks add up, you just end up right where you started.

So it’s like without that consistency, you’re not really making any progress at all. You feel like you’re making progress for two weeks and then you’re not making any feel like you’re not making any progress for six weeks. And that just manifests more of that feeling of frustration. So how do you suggest that for someone who’s in this position? How do they develop more balance in their lives where they do stay consistent?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, so the first thing is ditching that all or nothing language. So to stop saying, I’m behind, I’m off the wagon, I’m off track, like, it’s always been in that identity of someone who is following through. And so something I teach is, redefining what consistent means. A lot of perfectionist love this idea of being consistent because in their head consistence is 100% compliance. And if they’re consistent, then they’re being perfect.

But what I reframe it as that’s helped me and also helped a lot of people I work with is that being consistent is doing something more often than not, and a lot of perfectionist, like we have that high bar those high standards, and we’re like, oh, well, I can’t get all the way there. So I’ll just not try at all. But by it’s very counterintuitive that by saying okay, consistency is showing up more often than not, then it actually allows us to have that permission for it to be imperfect, and to still identify as being a consistent person.

Because if you identify yourself, then that story you have with yourself about yourself is that you’re someone who doesn’t follow through, you will prove that to be true, you will act in accordance with that so that you can be right about who you are, so that you can have that certainty. So part of it a huge part of it is creating a new self image and identity, where you believe you’re the kind of person who is consistent, and to tell yourself that you’re being consistent, even when you don’t feel like it’s true. Because a lot of people say well, no, but I didn’t do it perfectly.

So I it’s lying if I said I’m going to the gym consistently. But by not giving ourselves like not having the grace to be able to say actually, I’m being consistent, I’m falling through most of the time, or at least some of the time, we’re still staying stuck in that identity that is pulling us back. And to answer your question from ages ago about procrastination, the identity stuff that is so important as well. If you believe you are a procrastinator, there is no app that will help you there is no technique because you will keep being pulled back into being a procrastinator because that’s who you believe you are.

And if you have that identity, the best you’ll ever be able to do is manage your desire to procrastinate. The key is getting into this identity of someone who doesn’t procrastinate. Like we all know these people. I’m like, What do you mean, you just did it right away? Like, what are you talking about? Like me, my fiance, Steve, when he was doing his uni assignments, he was like, Oh, I got this new assignment today, I’m just gonna get started.

And I was like, what, like, he’s just gonna do it. But it’s about getting into that identity of being someone who doesn’t procrastinate, and that pulls us towards it. But we have to be willing to get into that identity of someone who’s consistent, someone who doesn’t procrastinate before it’s true, because yeah, I don’t I can’t say that yet. Because it’s not true. But you have to believe it, for it to become true. And stop thinking that your beliefs are an observation. They’re creating reality.

Kathrin Zenkina
This is such an awesome distinction. And I’m all about this. I cannot wait until my students and future students and everybody to listen to this episode. Because this perfectionism is all or nothing mindset, this this thing. All these things that Sam was talking about, are the things that hold you back from, first of all, not just living your dream life, but actually feeling freedom in your life every single day. Because if you are constantly obsessing about your perfection and your consistency and everything that Sam was talking about, and that’s just like taking up all your headspace, and here at Manifestation Babe, we’re all about creating space for your desires to flow in.

And if your mind is cluttered with all of this nonsense crap, just like on a loop over and over and over again, then that’s going to prevent you from manifesting your dreams. So I hope you guys are like, if you’re listening to this pausing, taking notes, rewinding starting over and listening to as much as possible because there’s so many golden nuggets in here and it’s so freakin good. Sam, I just have a few more questions for you.

So one of them that crop brought up as you’re talking, you know, in regards to like, how do we find balance. So for instance, let’s talk about like productivity for just a moment and especially around feeling guilty when we’re not being productive. Like for instance, I see a lot of people who want to be productive in their life and want to get everything done, and they have all these amazing things that they want to create. But we all know that we’re human beings and we must relax every now and then.

Like we have to just chill out and not do anything otherwise a tired soul can’t really create as much as a rejuvenated soul can. Like a tired mind is not as creative as a rejuvenated, relaxed mind. And so it’s so important that every now and then we do sleep in and we do watch Netflix and we do read a book that has nothing to do with personal development, right? There’s, it’s so important to take a vacation or take a day off. However, Sam, so many people feel guilty for doing so. So what is your secret to breaking the cycle of guilt when it comes to this, in your opinion?

Sam Laura Brown
Yeah, and this is something that I experienced firsthand for a very long period of time. And it’s because we have our identity wrapped up with our results and our outcomes. And so when we feel like others love us because of how productive we are, and when we’re successful, and if I’m not successful and smart, I won’t receive love, of course we are going to feel this, like a version to rest, because we’re like, oh, I have to be productive to keep getting approval from others. But then we have that recipe, of course, we need to have eventually our body’s like, okay, you’ve got to have a break. And then we feel guilty, which means we’re not actually getting rest what I like to call clean rest, where you’re having rest, and actually letting it be restful instead of resting or watching Netflix, and then you feeling guilty the whole time and beating yourself up.

And then it means when you go back to work that you’re not able to show up fully. So when it comes to getting out of that rest, without guilt like and how to do that, what I get my clients to do, and our members in Perfectionist Getting Shit Done is something that they don’t want to do, which is to actually carve out clear time off that they’re not able to do anything productive in. And that way, it brings up all of the reasons and all the feelings that you’re trying to avoid when you’re just working for work sake, all of the time.

Because for me, for example, I was just working on my business all the time, every hour of the day was an option to be working. And of course, I couldn’t physically work all that time. But every hour was an option. It was like, Oh, well, I could be working right now I could be working right now. And it was when I read The Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss, and he really talks are about working for work sake, and how a lot of us work because we don’t even know what we like doing besides being productive. And we haven’t actually got an identity outside of being productive.

And that if you want to truly be productive, you have to fill that void. So a lot of us like we procrastinate because it’s a great time filler. We feel productive when we’re doing something even though procrastination, like a lot of perfectionist love, procrasti-cleaning, procrasti-learning, procrasti-researching, we do all those things, because they feel productive without feeling vulnerable.

And so I was really able to get in this place where I’m able to rest without guilt by saying to myself, Okay, I have to have at the time, I think it was one full day off of my business every week. And of course, as you know, with business, there’s always stuff to be done. And I already felt like I wasn’t getting enough done. But it’s that counterintuitive thing where if you actually force yourself to have that time off. And for me, it was really like discovering who am I when I’m not working on my business. And when I’m not being productive, like what do I even like?

And when I told a lot of people in my life about this, I’m like, But you love your business, you love personal development, like, Yeah, but I love Netflix doesn’t mean I should watch it all the time. Like just because you love something doesn’t mean you should do it 24/7. And so I know a lot of us, with our businesses, or if we’re doing something, we love doing that we justify all but I love it. So I should do it all the time. But it’s at the cost of not actually figuring out who we are beyond that.

And that can be super dangerous when it comes to business and your whole identity is attached to the business. So for me, I had a day off every week. And that really brought up like those first few months were very uncomfortable, because I was like, I’m not allowed to do anything on my business, even if I’m bored out of my mind. And it made me actually discover like, Okay, who am I when I’m not doing that? What do I actually enjoy doing. And also, it made me so much more productive during the week. Because I was like, Well, I’m having this day off.

So I have to get everything done by then. But when every hour of the day was an option, there was never any urgency. There was never any need to get things done. I could be really lazy with my time management and not actually be intentional because it’s like, well, there’s so much time I didn’t have to be mindful. But of course, like when you have less time, you have to be intentional. So at the moment, like constantly I’m working on working less and less and less because it’s just such a good filter for deciding what I actually need to do. Perfectionists love busy work.

This was like formatting my notes instead of doing the damn test exam I needed to do. And in business as I said it was like editing blog posts that were already up and it’s like making your website look pretty. And all those things that don’t actually move the needle but when you have only a short amount of time. It’s such a good filter to actually decide okay, what are the needle movers and getting them done.

So I know a lot of people like and when I’m teaching this everyone has resistance to now that I’m already behind like I can’t work less but if they’re willing to just trust that this works, they actually create time off for themselves where they’re able to practice, just like because they’ve taken it off the table, that they could be working or doing something productive. They’re like, Okay, well, shit, I have to figure out what I like. And then it’s time they are working. It really forces them to do the uncomfortable things, which they’re more willing to do, because there’s an end in sight.

Like when we’re in the perfectionist mindset, and we’re having a productive day, we like, okay, great, you’re having a productive day, let’s add more to your plate. And so another practice within this is, I work from my calendar. And that is such a great way to make sure that you’re not overloading your day, perfectionist love having a full plate of commitments, because then we can blame being busy for any lack of results. It’s like procrastination, how we get to blame it, it lets us off the hook. So it has been busy. So what I do is I have my day, my calendar.

And if I’m having a really productive day, and I’m getting stuff done early, I take the afternoon off, which of course, my brain is still like, oh my god, we could be doing so much more and all of that. I just let it have that chatter. And I have that afternoon off. Because if you are rewarding, like your brains like a child, and it’s like when it does something well, and you’re saying great, do more. It’s like, what the fuck? Why would I want to do like that is not motivating. Like there’s no reward, we reward it with more of the stuff it doesn’t want to do. Because the brain is honest, spent all this energy making decisions and all of that.

So it’s like, if you’re having a productive day, decide what you’re going to do, get it done, and then force yourself to take the rest of that day off. I know, there’s like a whole conversation to be had around, like capitalizing on when you’re in flow and all of that. But for me, I found that it’s such a powerful way to practice resting without guilt. And the next day when I go to work, I’m like, Yes, I’m the kind of person who gets things done so quickly and efficiently. And it helps to reinforce that identity as well.

Kathrin Zenkina
Oh, my God, I love everything you just said, I just had like a million things pop into my head. Of course, I feel like every time we have a conversation, it’s like, oh my god, there’s more to talk about. And I love it. I love how you, you know, you’re part of your practice. And what you teach is all about creating space. And something that a lot of people don’t talk about when it comes to creating space, which is what you mentioned, like just giving yourself that silence, to really hear what you think about yourself, or what you’re thinking about all day long, or how you feel about yourself or what your identity is, and the stories play out.

And a lot of people they just don’t give themselves that space. And you’re right, like we stay busy to avoid having those tough conversations with ourselves. And we stay busy to numb and really numb how we’re truly feeling on the inside. Like we, for instance, let’s say that we actually hate our jobs. But we keep getting really busy at work to avoid even confronting that feeling. And confronting that thought because confronting that feeling. And thought means that we’re going to enter into unfamiliar territory. And that unfamiliar territory could mean oh my god, what if I was meant to start a business that’s really scary. I’ve never done that before.

And so we just stay busy and busy and busy to avoid that. When I was in my fourth ceremonia arrhythmia, when I did ayahuasca, I literally had a whole lesson around this for the entire 12 hour journey, which was I laid in the hammock and nothing crazy happened, that, for me, just laying in a hammock, staring at the sky, and listening to all of my thoughts, all of my feelings, all of my beliefs and everything I’m afraid of inside my own head.

And let me tell you, it was the most uncomfortable, most excruciatingly, like boring, and very unfamiliar and very scary 12 hours of my life because I had no idea what else is going to pop into my head and it was just me sitting there and reviewing essentially, like all of the things that are holding me back and all the things that I’m afraid to think about and afraid to face and afraid of, of just thinking about and addressing especially. And what I learned in those 12 hours was first of all, there’s nothing to be afraid of I made it out okay, and second of all, this was all being done in my favor because then I could really discover what actually needs to be worked on.

It’s not just this personal development that I’ve been doing in the past to really numb how I’m feeling. It’s not watching YouTube videos to distract me from the work that I really need to be doing and sometimes the work is just me sitting by myself and not talking to anyone not doing anything and just really being in this this space of silence to really really get to know and discover who I really am on the inside and it was such a beautiful lesson, Sam and so like in regards to you know taking time off you guys might you know you guys were listening.

You might be avoiding this right now, but let me tell you not only is it so good for being productive, which is sounds counterintuitive, but it’s also so good for really getting clear on what you want out of life. And if you are so busy that you don’t give yourself time to daydream, time to visualize time to really just think about what else is out there, you know, or like, or like, what do I really believe to be true about myself?

What are some stories that I can work on that I keep telling myself about how I’m not good enough, and how I’m not doing enough and how no one is discovering my Instagram enough and how no one’s really sharing and reposting my posts and how my podcast isn’t doing well, or whatever thoughts you might have. Giving yourself this space is so crucial, because this is the real guys, this is the real personal development work here. It’s not just reading a book or listening to a podcast, it’s you after this episode, integrating and implementing everything that Sam has said in this episode so far.

And and really just opening up your journal and being like, Okay, first of all, when is my next day off, so that I can really give myself space to, to not only be more productive in the future, but really think about my life and think about who I am and restructure my identity if it’s not serving me, and then really ask yourself like, is there something you’re procrastinating on? Are you being overly perfectionistic, maybe you should let go a little bit more and just relax and surrender because life is not all about control. Because control is just an illusion, right?

There’s no such thing as you having any control outside of your thoughts, your feelings, and your beliefs and your actions. And what happens in the world based off of that you don’t have any control over. But how you see things and how you perceive things and your perspectives. That’s what you have control over. But you need to really implement this stuff. And I promise it’s going to be a game changer for you. So thank you so much, Sam for coming on here. And please tag us @manifestationbabe and screenshot this episode and let us know what your biggest takeaways are from this episode.

I know that I had so many like if you guys were to see my notepad right now, I just scribbled so many ideas, so many new insights, so many new perspectives that I haven’t heard before. And we are so curious to hear what you took away from this episode. And please give Sam lots and lots and lots of love for sharing her time with you sharing her insights, sharing her perspectives and all of her nuggets of wisdom. Thank you so much, Sam for coming onto this episode. And I will catch you guys in the next one. Bye.


If you want to make sure that the hard work you’re putting into your business isn’t a waste of effort, then I invite you to check out the power planning course. It’ll teach you how to plan properly as a perfectionist with power planning so that you can get out of your own way in your business. And so that every hour you put into your business gets doubles the return. You can find out more and sign up today at samlaurabrown.com/powerplanning.

Author: Sam Brown